達比修的入札金創史上新高 - 美國職棒

Kelly avatar
By Kelly
at 2011-12-18T11:29

Table of Contents

SI上的新聞
http://0rz.tw/IKXUI

Japanese officials: Winning bid for Darvish to set posting record

Contrary to published reports, the top sealed bid submitted for star Japanese
pitcher Yu Darvish on Wednesday was the highest in the history of the posting
process, exceeding the record $51.1 million fee that the Boston Red Sox paid
the Seibu Lions for the rights to negotiate with Daisuke Matsuzaka in 2006,
according to Japanese league officials.

比當時松坂的51.1M還多

Though the identity of the major league franchise that won exclusive
negotiating rights to the 25-year-old right-hander has yet to be revealed,
Japanese league officials say that the offer to Darvish's team, the Hokkaido
Nippon Ham Fighters, is higher than the $40-48 million range that has been
reported in the U.S. and Japan.

據NPB官方,達比修的入札金比目前美日報導的40~48M還多

The Fighters have until Tuesday to accept or reject the highest bid. If they
accept, the high bidder has 30 days to work out a deal with Darvish's agents.
If no agreement is reached, Darvish returns to the Fighters for another
season, and no money changes hands.

火腿在週二時限之前要做出是否同意的決定

About a half-dozen major league teams entered the auction for Darvish, who
has a 1.99 ERA over seven seasons in Japan. He's reportedly seeking a
five-year, $75 million contract, which would push the total package to more
than $125 million. The two most aggressive bidders are believed to have been
the Toronto Blue Jays and the Texas Rangers.


==============
真有球團殺紅眼?還是故意攔胡?
如此一來,達比修的合約金…
情況真是有趣XD

照當時的匯率來看
松坂的入札金51M差不多等於60億日元
假設達比修標金為52M,換算變40億日元,火腿隊沒有比較賺
--

All Comments

Edith avatar
By Edith
at 2011-12-21T04:05
現在日圓強勢,美金相對變薄不值錢呀XD
Frederica avatar
By Frederica
at 2011-12-23T09:22
不會真的是NYY吧 藍鳥感覺不會丟這麼多
Barb Cronin avatar
By Barb Cronin
at 2011-12-28T06:14
條子丟這麼多不留CJ也怪怪的
Lydia avatar
By Lydia
at 2011-12-29T00:56
這麼多錢擺在火腿面前還需要考慮嗎??
Enid avatar
By Enid
at 2011-12-29T16:36
達比修的薪水再漲下去就比其他隊友還多了
Hardy avatar
By Hardy
at 2011-12-30T18:02
npb喔~
Linda avatar
By Linda
at 2012-01-03T06:29
Cashman:老闆說要節省薪資的 所以隨手下標 沒想到中了?
Suhail Hany avatar
By Suhail Hany
at 2012-01-04T22:27
破紀錄有什麼好龜的 火腿莫名其妙...
Dinah avatar
By Dinah
at 2012-01-08T01:27
搞不懂遲遲不公布的用意在哪 又不是什麼丟臉事
David avatar
By David
at 2012-01-08T10:48
傲嬌阿
Caitlin avatar
By Caitlin
at 2012-01-12T01:45
是不是達比不喜歡標到他的球隊??不然為啥不公布??
Daniel avatar
By Daniel
at 2012-01-12T23:44
都開放入札了 怎麼可能會有不喜歡標到球隊就不公佈這種事
Jacob avatar
By Jacob
at 2012-01-13T08:50
別人入札提早公佈不代表火腿也要跟進提早吧
Linda avatar
By Linda
at 2012-01-15T15:31
不是只會知道金額嗎? 接受以後才會知道是哪一隊
Caitlin avatar
By Caitlin
at 2012-01-16T16:35
對 接受之後MLB才會公佈球隊
Joe avatar
By Joe
at 2012-01-17T06:19
要等達比修的原球團方同意,MLB方才能公佈
Anonymous avatar
By Anonymous
at 2012-01-21T20:39
入札制度有沒有可能 有一些隊伍用極高的入札金搶得協商權
Emma avatar
By Emma
at 2012-01-22T22:41
然後用很低的年薪跟球員協商 故意造成破局
Blanche avatar
By Blanche
at 2012-01-27T00:01
主席辦公室會看你的協商過程,然後叫第二名來談約
Enid avatar
By Enid
at 2012-01-31T16:27
這問題大概每天都會看到被問一次 近一兩周以來 XD
Faithe avatar
By Faithe
at 2012-02-02T21:47
故意讓大家都搶不到 反正我吃不起 大家也別想吃
Valerie avatar
By Valerie
at 2012-02-04T14:41
感謝解惑
Rebecca avatar
By Rebecca
at 2012-02-08T16:46
要是有球團每年都搞這招的話,遲早會加條禁止投標條款
Lauren avatar
By Lauren
at 2012-02-11T04:43
這招搞一次就很難看了 那些老板們不是吃素的讓你這樣玩
Elizabeth avatar
By Elizabeth
at 2012-02-12T02:59
三十天太長了啦 現在通訊那麼方便 制度有點@@
Delia avatar
By Delia
at 2012-02-15T12:56
藍鳥想砸的話也不是沒錢
Ina avatar
By Ina
at 2012-02-20T09:03
弄個入札投標保證金制度呢?
Oliver avatar
By Oliver
at 2012-02-24T20:02
現在是火腿球團在掙扎...
Carolina Franco avatar
By Carolina Franco
at 2012-02-27T14:06
以達比修的狀況 若先用50M搶標 再出50M/5Y 被判惡意搶標
Connor avatar
By Connor
at 2012-02-27T19:31
的機會應該不大 但達比修同意的機會應該也不高 然後破局
Kyle avatar
By Kyle
at 2012-03-02T16:36
很難講,去年A's就沒有談
應該是岩隈開太高
Edwina avatar
By Edwina
at 2012-03-06T09:53
那去年第二標的球隊為何沒談?
Rosalind avatar
By Rosalind
at 2012-03-10T22:40
火腿不公佈當然是要多一點鏡頭啊,達比修這種等級的可
不是常出現
Hamiltion avatar
By Hamiltion
at 2012-03-13T22:19
我記得岩偎當初要的價錢還滿豪洨的
Frederic avatar
By Frederic
at 2012-03-14T02:25
公布的期限是禮拜二嗎 那就認了慢慢等
Tristan Cohan avatar
By Tristan Cohan
at 2012-03-16T03:43
MLB老闆沒你那麼無聊 開那種天價去搶協商權 還要花30天
去談一份不會成立的契約 時間對他們來說比金錢還重要好嗎
Puput avatar
By Puput
at 2012-03-16T10:51
而且..達比修你投50M搞不好還搶不到 而且你如果不需要
Isabella avatar
By Isabella
at 2012-03-16T23:42
結果達比修真的同意50M+50M/5y 為了搗亂花1億
GM不被炒魷魚才怪
Robert avatar
By Robert
at 2012-03-20T15:15
達比修真的同意50M/5y我倒覺得很讚
Sierra Rose avatar
By Sierra Rose
at 2012-03-24T05:14
用三號的價格用他到31歲XD
Doris avatar
By Doris
at 2012-03-26T16:09
去年是傳岩隈經紀人團野村開的價有平均1年18M(含入札) 比照
Zito 跟平均1年12M兩種說法 這都跟達爾經紀人要球的平均1年
Xanthe avatar
By Xanthe
at 2012-03-27T16:10
20M一樣都是交涉的手法 先喊高讓你砍吧 至於岩隈本身是希望
有年薪6憶日幣或8百萬鎂兩種說法 這價跟A's開的4年1525萬鎂
Sarah avatar
By Sarah
at 2012-03-28T16:57
就已經有很大差距了 會破局幾乎是一開始就知道的事
George avatar
By George
at 2012-03-30T21:03
達比修不可能同意50M/5Y的 這比他待在日本的年薪還少
Oscar avatar
By Oscar
at 2012-03-31T17:15
還要加上入札金50M哦 平均一年20M簽一個三號你真凱
Puput avatar
By Puput
at 2012-04-03T09:04
如果球團本身就沒很渴望他 花這個錢只是浪費
如果球團很想要簽他 就不會有你說的惡意搶標情形
Elizabeth avatar
By Elizabeth
at 2012-04-04T10:39
達比修今年的薪水是6M 要一下double成13M只是球團放話
Necoo avatar
By Necoo
at 2012-04-09T08:07
日職的談薪制度是一年一簽 每年的薪水都不一樣
入札失敗就是只能和球團談薪 球團要說話不算話你也
Adele avatar
By Adele
at 2012-04-12T01:37
最後算下來該不會平均一年要>25M才能簽下來,這樣會划算嗎?
George avatar
By George
at 2012-04-12T08:59
沒辦法
Joe avatar
By Joe
at 2012-04-16T09:28
以目前最保守的算法 入札金50M+75M/5Y 總額是125M/5Y上下
Carolina Franco avatar
By Carolina Franco
at 2012-04-18T02:19
今年看灑錢灑的真過癮..還以為只有普神的一個高峰
Ursula avatar
By Ursula
at 2012-04-20T12:24
平均一年已經25M了 如果這篇報導屬實 那真的要超過25M了
Adele avatar
By Adele
at 2012-04-21T04:29
入扎金又不用算豪華稅
Jacky avatar
By Jacky
at 2012-04-24T00:59
可是MLB好像還有豪華稅制度?總額裡的50M入札金好像不會
Agatha avatar
By Agatha
at 2012-04-26T13:21
被扣稅 這部分我就不太懂了
Connor avatar
By Connor
at 2012-04-30T05:23
入扎金不算豪華稅...不計在payroll裡面
Caitlin avatar
By Caitlin
at 2012-05-02T01:27
入札跟合約分開來看 所以你說總額下來平均超過20M不對
Rachel avatar
By Rachel
at 2012-05-02T08:23
說不定火腿根本不想賣達爾 拖那麼久感覺很沒誠意
Christine avatar
By Christine
at 2012-05-04T02:04
可以拖到20號
Linda avatar
By Linda
at 2012-05-07T14:38
一定是遇到達爾不喜歡的球隊 所以考慮那麼久...
Sierra Rose avatar
By Sierra Rose
at 2012-05-11T15:49
球隊不是要等到同意金額後才會公布嗎??
Gilbert avatar
By Gilbert
at 2012-05-12T04:58
火腿這邊也不知道出最高的是哪一隊嗎??
Ingrid avatar
By Ingrid
at 2012-05-15T20:11
那如果是不喜歡的球隊 接受又有何意義?
Elvira avatar
By Elvira
at 2012-05-16T01:53
現在的豪華稅 除了洋基以外 其他隊也很少會達到
David avatar
By David
at 2012-05-19T19:59
達爾經紀人:爽 終於NYY
Rachel avatar
By Rachel
at 2012-05-21T15:42
以藍鳥為例 入扎金計不計在payroll裡面 應該沒差吧
Brianna avatar
By Brianna
at 2012-05-25T06:26
接受了才知道是哪隊 本來就母隊立場來說也應該要最高得標
Adele avatar
By Adele
at 2012-05-29T05:34
下禮拜三就揭曉了
Daph Bay avatar
By Daph Bay
at 2012-05-30T08:58
入札不算球隊薪資不會增加豪華稅沒錯,但也是球隊簽該球
Elma avatar
By Elma
at 2012-06-03T05:43
員花的錢,用豪華稅的制度來看就可以算出各隊用相同入札
Carol avatar
By Carol
at 2012-06-06T15:54
簽他一年需要多花多少了阿!
Jessica avatar
By Jessica
at 2012-06-10T10:04
如果入扎金真的創新高 我看不懂火腿在等什麼
Doris avatar
By Doris
at 2012-06-12T12:20
畢竟人家也喊了100M日圓留人 雖然不知道是不是喊爽的
Adele avatar
By Adele
at 2012-06-15T18:19
樓上100M日圓 太少了吧
Rebecca avatar
By Rebecca
at 2012-06-17T23:59
另外去年綠帽 不知有沒有一絲搞破壞的想法
Ethan avatar
By Ethan
at 2012-06-22T03:33
好像是喊10億日圓年薪吧...
Agatha avatar
By Agatha
at 2012-06-26T13:10
打錯..1000M才對
Tracy avatar
By Tracy
at 2012-06-28T22:40
今年岩隈年薪3億円 結果綠帽出那種價格 說實在的我很難
Sierra Rose avatar
By Sierra Rose
at 2012-06-30T08:26
相信沒有一點搞破壞的想法 商人爾虞我詐 沒什麼不可能的
Dorothy avatar
By Dorothy
at 2012-07-01T03:56
達比修如果留日,明年拿個七億日元上下應該不成問題
Gilbert avatar
By Gilbert
at 2012-07-05T20:22
如果是藍鳥得標 這種價碼當初為什麼不留大夫就好了...
Susan avatar
By Susan
at 2012-07-09T21:23
去年岩隈 綠帽玩得起 今年達比修 應該玩不起
Dorothy avatar
By Dorothy
at 2012-07-12T10:42
要付豪華稅的球隊,新約等於直接+40%的錢,14年開始算50%
Zanna avatar
By Zanna
at 2012-07-12T17:30
不過今年達比修 就換一些中等市場的球隊來玩去年的遊戲
Selena avatar
By Selena
at 2012-07-12T20:08
也不是不可能的發展
Elvira avatar
By Elvira
at 2012-07-16T23:29
洋基來玩的話等於是15*2*0.4+15*3*.5=37.5M
Lydia avatar
By Lydia
at 2012-07-21T19:23
估計只多一咪咪意思ㄧ下...
Dinah avatar
By Dinah
at 2012-07-22T09:50
感覺上若是真的,應該是中小型球隊或是攔胡的可能性較高
Damian avatar
By Damian
at 2012-07-25T03:55
所以藍鳥若出50M+50M/5Y 達爾要來很好 負擔的起 不來也OK
Thomas avatar
By Thomas
at 2012-07-29T19:44
你NYY也別想要
Isla avatar
By Isla
at 2012-08-03T10:13
打從一開始就知道這隻太貴了 入扎+年薪
Charlotte avatar
By Charlotte
at 2012-08-04T04:51
1000M日圓,是不會轉換單位喔 1000M=1Billion
Tristan Cohan avatar
By Tristan Cohan
at 2012-08-06T10:13
會不會太貴!籃鳥去簽普神都有剩
Linda avatar
By Linda
at 2012-08-08T18:50
新聞不是說藍鳥想開75M/5Y
Andrew avatar
By Andrew
at 2012-08-09T22:23
新聞:入札51M+ 加上 75M/5Y = 25M+/y 可能性我認為不高
Wallis avatar
By Wallis
at 2012-08-11T12:13
那都是媒體猜的 實際上開多少只有Paul Beeston和Alex
Anthopoulos知道
Rebecca avatar
By Rebecca
at 2012-08-15T02:30
得標應該就是篤定要簽達比了 不管合約多貴
Rebecca avatar
By Rebecca
at 2012-08-17T17:31
事實上 想簽達比修差不多就要付這個價錢 125M
Odelette avatar
By Odelette
at 2012-08-19T00:24
會出現破記錄的入札金也不意外 就像當年紅襪砸51.1M
總是有老闆為了想奪標開天價
Anthony avatar
By Anthony
at 2012-08-20T20:06
國民好像沒投標對不對?
Iris avatar
By Iris
at 2012-08-22T06:09
臉蛋 實力 話題性 亞洲市場 還有一堆人想看他被打爆
Connor avatar
By Connor
at 2012-08-25T08:52
入札金跟合約總和 5年125M+ 真的太高了 可能性真的太低了
Necoo avatar
By Necoo
at 2012-08-26T14:14
國民現在最主要的課題是把那幾支怪物小朋友養成酷斯拉
Ida avatar
By Ida
at 2012-08-30T07:42
入札金破記錄不是很重要 總和及年均合不合理才重要吧
Mary avatar
By Mary
at 2012-09-01T11:58
開個100M/7y
Queena avatar
By Queena
at 2012-09-05T22:29
150M/10y
Belly avatar
By Belly
at 2012-09-10T12:47
哇 投手開十年約耶
Dora avatar
By Dora
at 2012-09-13T19:52
50M+ 5Y/75M 5Y 125M 1Y25M
Delia avatar
By Delia
at 2012-09-18T14:45
以達比修的年紀 7y或8y 125M 加上一些附加條款 可以賭一
Madame avatar
By Madame
at 2012-09-19T06:13
下 不過5年125M 真的太高了
Ingrid avatar
By Ingrid
at 2012-09-20T11:51
[還有一堆人想看他被打爆]<-- 這指的是[PTT一堆人]嗎? lol
Eden avatar
By Eden
at 2012-09-21T05:33
希望被打爆的還真的比較多,畢竟自家力挺,但敵隊有29個
Elizabeth avatar
By Elizabeth
at 2012-09-25T11:57
想看他被打爆
Edward Lewis avatar
By Edward Lewis
at 2012-09-30T04:13
想看他被打爆 +1
Callum avatar
By Callum
at 2012-10-01T19:37
總會有爆的時候啦!!!我也想看!!!
另推WLR大
Noah avatar
By Noah
at 2012-10-04T08:43
松坂當年不算入札金的話,平均一年應該也不到10M
Victoria avatar
By Victoria
at 2012-10-04T17:34
6.3M 8.3M 8.3M 8.3M 10.3M 10M
Franklin avatar
By Franklin
at 2012-10-04T23:40
想看他打腫鄉民的嘴!
Wallis avatar
By Wallis
at 2012-10-05T15:30
實在不懂為何有些人總是喊著入札金不能算是成本
Edwina avatar
By Edwina
at 2012-10-07T01:12
入札金不算成本 科科.... 那錢是從天上掉下來的嗎 哈
Mason avatar
By Mason
at 2012-10-11T08:14
在大聯盟沒有投手不被打爆過的
Hedwig avatar
By Hedwig
at 2012-10-15T13:27
火腿:超爽的在地上撿到5千萬美金這樣?
Damian avatar
By Damian
at 2012-10-16T13:44
等確定再來談,不過MLB一定會失望
入札超過30M的都太花錢...
Mia avatar
By Mia
at 2012-10-21T00:12
想看他屠殺大聯盟..........
Hedda avatar
By Hedda
at 2012-10-21T05:38
他會被打爆吧!
Kelly avatar
By Kelly
at 2012-10-22T23:32
換藍鳥 挖到石油嗎 出到5000Wup 爆掉的話 不就虧死
Tom avatar
By Tom
at 2012-10-24T08:32
現在丟出50M 沒簽六七年以上去稀釋入札金有點虧耶...
Susan avatar
By Susan
at 2012-10-28T16:11
肉腳
Heather avatar
By Heather
at 2012-10-28T20:13
酸民比MLB教練還厲害 可以直接看出實力
Yedda avatar
By Yedda
at 2012-11-02T02:50
酸民出一張嘴又不用負責
Agatha avatar
By Agatha
at 2012-11-03T04:31
只出一張嘴還要負責也很厲害
Doris avatar
By Doris
at 2012-11-06T02:21
酸民代表
Catherine avatar
By Catherine
at 2012-11-10T22:07
快點被打爆吧 一來就20M 啥東西
Lily avatar
By Lily
at 2012-11-11T06:59
如果有球隊仿照松坂的話連入札金平均20M/Y 好像有可能...
只是這賭注也太大...
Elma avatar
By Elma
at 2012-11-14T16:22
真的很貴 這錢夠買一個在MLB正值顛峰的賽揚..
Tom avatar
By Tom
at 2012-11-15T19:51
應該是說入札金沒有算在薪資裡 紅襪簽松坂入札金跟薪
水就分開算的
Jake avatar
By Jake
at 2012-11-19T14:28
這篇文章底下的推文進入一個無限輪迴的循環中
Kumar avatar
By Kumar
at 2012-11-23T08:30
達比修的推文好像都在討論差不多的內容XD
Catherine avatar
By Catherine
at 2012-11-26T13:01
沒有算在薪資沒錯,但球隊還是得砸這筆錢,當然得算成本
Anonymous avatar
By Anonymous
at 2012-11-30T07:57
問題一個年輕cya投手都很早就被綁死 幾時市場上才有
強投可以買
Victoria avatar
By Victoria
at 2012-11-30T15:56
我又沒說入札金不算成本 重點是這項額外成本又不記入
luxury tax cap
Daph Bay avatar
By Daph Bay
at 2012-12-04T14:36
有豪華稅煩惱的球隊也不太多
Noah avatar
By Noah
at 2012-12-05T20:53
強投自己培養吧!現在市場根本難簽到CYA級的年輕投手
Odelette avatar
By Odelette
at 2012-12-08T19:06
到時候林漢點進入FA肯定會是大轟動
Victoria avatar
By Victoria
at 2012-12-12T10:08
就很單純的轉隊費
Kama avatar
By Kama
at 2012-12-14T13:34
反正大家都不看好達比就是.....
Rae avatar
By Rae
at 2012-12-17T13:46
跟A-Rod拿30M躺著也會被酸一樣(?)
Sierra Rose avatar
By Sierra Rose
at 2012-12-18T16:29
然後因為達比 犯板規3也沒人處理
Christine avatar
By Christine
at 2012-12-22T17:05
推樓上
Victoria avatar
By Victoria
at 2012-12-27T08:06
所以這篇要不要爆啦
Faithe avatar
By Faithe
at 2012-12-28T17:44
基本上達比修有還不算MLB球員 板規3不適用也合理XD
Cara avatar
By Cara
at 2013-01-02T16:14
版龜3沒規定是MLB限定吧 只寫球員跟球隊
Genevieve avatar
By Genevieve
at 2013-01-05T02:33
結果史上最高只是吵新聞 其實GM們看他不爽都出超低入札金
Mason avatar
By Mason
at 2013-01-07T19:23
簽越多年可能越慘,像松坂在紅襪就是水貨
Hedda avatar
By Hedda
at 2013-01-08T16:01
但沒簽松坂+岡島...不見得有07年的WC吧
Odelette avatar
By Odelette
at 2013-01-09T05:15
而且2008也投得不錯 比井川慶那種合約好多了吧
Poppy avatar
By Poppy
at 2013-01-12T11:17
井川一年才4M 有簽的很差嗎= =? 是沒預期他會炸成這樣
Todd Johnson avatar
By Todd Johnson
at 2013-01-13T12:36
才對吧
Kristin avatar
By Kristin
at 2013-01-17T15:44
井川最失敗的應該是26M的入札金吧
Harry avatar
By Harry
at 2013-01-18T03:39
要連入札金一起算才能知道合約是否合理
Skylar DavisLinda avatar
By Skylar DavisLinda
at 2013-01-21T17:59
日幣近年升值兇的,就算是天價也只是反映usd不值錢了
Elizabeth avatar
By Elizabeth
at 2013-01-24T03:00
還是希望他和陳 都來MLB
Rebecca avatar
By Rebecca
at 2013-01-27T13:40
Chen只有金鶯有消息嗎?
Ula avatar
By Ula
at 2013-01-29T01:54
Ula avatar
By Ula
at 2013-02-02T03:04
同tentryway國內看到NPB管道實在太少
Heather avatar
By Heather
at 2013-02-03T13:16
現在網路那麼方便,看個NPB那麼難嗎?陳出場也幾乎都看得到
Jake avatar
By Jake
at 2013-02-08T04:31
只想要看HD的 謝謝
Hamiltion avatar
By Hamiltion
at 2013-02-09T02:54
上面可沒聲明HD,為了這個還需要丟水球嗎 XDDD

Phillies To Sign Jimmy Rollins

Freda avatar
By Freda
at 2011-12-18T02:40
https://twitter.com/#!/jcrasnick/status/148107180929859585 Jimmy Rollins has agreed to 3-year deal with #Phillies with vesting option for 4th year, says B ...

Reds Acquire Mat Latos For Alonso...

Hamiltion avatar
By Hamiltion
at 2011-12-18T02:20
http://ppt.cc/TvDK 如題 Alonso+Edinson Volquez+Yasmani Grandal+Brad Boxberger andlt;=andgt; Mat Latos 紅人終究還是把Alonso給交易出去了 在一壘有Anthony Rizzo的情況下拿Latos ...

CJ Wilson to Angels

Ingrid avatar
By Ingrid
at 2011-12-18T00:14
https://twitter.com/#!/Ken_Rosenthal/status/147876818932862976 https://twitter.com/#!/Ken_Rosenthal/status/147876822451879936 C.J. Wilson的合約內容如下 and#3 ...

Barry Bonds 判刑 終於...

Kumar avatar
By Kumar
at 2011-12-17T20:24
Barry Bonds gets 30 days house arrest,two years probation; sentence stayed pending appeal *** The Barry Bonds case is over. Bonds, as we speak, is being ...

Rumors

Rebecca avatar
By Rebecca
at 2011-12-17T14:34
Rumors http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/ 1. Red Sox GM Ben Cherington appeared on MLB Network Radioand#39;s and#34;Inside Pitchand#34; with Jim Bowden this ...